Curse

paddes · Oct 07, 2007, 11:38 AM // 11:38

Greetings,

First of all, I must say that I've been a reading member of this forum since the beginning and I have played GW since the first beta events back in 2004. Usually I don't write a lot in forums but this topic really deserves a reply because I think Rahja made a very good point there.

Before I began playing GW, i was the typical MMORPG sucker who thought that grinding endlessly for levels and equipment was fun. But then I started playing GW and discovered that MMORPGs don't need to be all grind. What I liked was the maturity of the game, the lack of people that felt the urge to brag about their "super elite" equipment for which they ginded endless hours at no end, the equality of the gamers and the feeling that i could actually enjoy a MMORPG without having to worry about playtime and my status. In short, I could enjoy a game with my friends without having to worry about their level or equipment since apart from skill, everything was equal. In my opinion, all that was given up for the sake of that part of the playerbase, that prefers to grind for their merits.

What I see now, are players that are constantly showing off their titles in order to feel better than the rest. What I see now is the discrimination of players that do not possess a certain title or a certain PvE skill. What I see now, is the great rift between the casual gamer and the hardcore grinder. I think A-NET has forgotten, that the longplay casual gamer, who has been loyal to this game for over 2 years now does not lack any skill compared to the new hardcore player, who may have the higher title.

In the long run, it will be the loyal players, who are being abandoned because of this. One should never forget, that titles and lots of other stuff, that was added to the game, was not there in the first place and many veteran players who played through every mission countless times, could not be bothered with going through them yet another time just to grind for a meaningless title that was never the central point of the gamephilosophy anyway. Compared to the new gamer, who has still got the motivation to take the tiles into account and go through the missions, the veteran player is at a loss. To me, increased difficulty or the promise of a title does not make a mission replayable.

But now, GW has changed into a race/competition for show-off titles, skills and armors and GW2 is going to make this even worse (no more level cap, hall of monuments, more titles etc...). The DoA disaster made very clear, that GW is not meant for the casual gamer anymore, it's a perfect example of where they sacrificed the fun factor only to please the masochistic hardcore grinder, no more fun builds only cookie cutter stuff and no more "quick runs".

I never liked the titles, you can see what they did to the PvP community (pvp group looking for r6-9) and even to some extend to the PvE community (group looking for lightbringer r6). In EotN, this is getting even worse, where they sacrificed real content for shallow titles and PvE skills.

GW should go back to the roots and remember those people who helped to make it big in the first place!

angmar_nite · Oct 07, 2007, 02:30 PM // 14:30

The complaints about cookie cutter builds is ridiculous. General PVE is easy so most skills will work there. As you get harder, only better skills will work. The final result in a really difficult mission or place, is that only a few combinations of skills work best.

paddes · Oct 07, 2007, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by angmar_nite

The complaints about cookie cutter builds is ridiculous. General PVE is easy so most skills will work there. As you get harder, only better skills will work. The final result in a really difficult mission or place, is that only a few combinations of skills work best.

Thanks for the reply,
but I am disappointed, that instead of a reply to the very essence of what i said, I get an answer to one of the many side arguements, which will only wash down the above stated main arguments. But i want to reply nonetheless, since the "cookie cutter problem" is far from being ridiculous.

While cookie cutter builds can be a way to make certain instances easier, especially with the problem of mediocre gameplay in random PUGs, cookie cutter builds should be in no way the only alternative to a successfull mission. Compare it to PvP, where there are many ways to reach victory, PvE missiouns should leave the gamer with more than only one solution. This is what makes gameplay versatile and creative, because of mindlessly googling up the one solution, you can come up with one yourself. It's what makes real teamplay fun and entertaining. Difficulty in missions should not equal the reduction to one single solution.

draxynnic · Oct 07, 2007, 03:40 PM // 15:40

In most cases, they're not. People still succeeded occasionally before the cookie cutter builds were devised.

It's just that the cookie cutter builds, ran properly, make success that much more likely, and your typical grinder wants that semi-guaranteed success more than experimentation.

Myself, I never saw the level treadmill as being fun. I play RPGs to complete story objectives, not to reach max level - an "RPG" that's purely based on the level treadmill inevitibly bores me.

At best, levels and level-like benefits like certain titles should be a mechanic - a representation of how your character has improved while pursuing various objectives, not an objective in and of itself.

Lord Sojar · Oct 16, 2007, 06:37 AM // 06:37

Well, guess what? The dungeon guide update on the 12th that happened fixed this. GJ ANET. /cheers

Achilles Antony · Oct 16, 2007, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Yep, it's much better now. It's very easy to reach R5 in all the necessary title tracks to gain access to armors, weapons and consumables, with little to no grind. Grind is only necessary if you want to max out the title track, but I'm certain not everyone will want to do that, so that's left to the more 'hardcore' players, where it belongs. Good Job for sure, Anet.

Artkin · Oct 16, 2007, 11:12 PM // 23:12

/SIGNED

GW is on life support.....basically I'm looking for a new game to play

Dungeon and Hero book ONLY works up to lvl 8 in the title....then you HAVE to use HM books!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lord Sojar · Oct 17, 2007, 12:16 AM // 00:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artkin

/SIGNED

GW is on life support.....basically I'm looking for a new game to play

Dungeon and Hero book ONLY works up to lvl 8 in the title....then you HAVE to use HM books!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't mind HM books though, at least HM books are there right? Hard Mode itself isn't a grind, just tougher. I never said challenge was a bad thing!

Vinraith · Oct 17, 2007, 12:39 AM // 00:39

I'm glad Anet found a good compromise on this one. I think almost everyone (with the exception of the actual "I want stuff for free" crowd) comes away from this reasonably happy.

bhavv · Oct 17, 2007, 05:06 AM // 05:06

Oooh, I cant believe I missed this thread, havnt been on guru for a while.

Firstly title grinding isnt a requirement to play be able to play GW. If you are new to the game, or a long time casual player that doesnt have the time on your hands to grind, no one is forcing you to do it. The rewards that you can achieve from grinding do not give you any strategic or in game advantage to the alternatives that are already there (I completed HM elona with R3 LB). Dont want to gring for Norn armor? Droknar armor is exactly the same thing. Dont want to grind for a rainbow phoenix? You can use any of the other plentiful pets in the game. They are all the same.

I dont have a problem with the title grind, it is there as a little extra for players that have completed the game and want something extra to do. It doesnt afftect Skill>Time at all, or make you any more skilled at the game. Its just more stuff to do and keep you going once you complete the game, and if you dont want to repeat it all on another character (I dont like playing the game all the way through more then once).

However one thing I have a HUGE problem with in GW:EN is PVP skills and consumables. These items pretty much remove the skill required to play PVE, by making it so much easier. IMHO the only reason these were added to the game is because ANET refuse to balance HM, or make hero/henching any better. Instead they give us consumables. What they are pretty much saying is:

'When you die too many times in prophecies HM because Lina and Mhenlo are useless, just use a Powerstone, and use an Armor and Grail to stop yourself dying so much.'

So basically they remove skill from the game by giving us options to make HM easier, yet they keep saying 'You cant have 7 heroes with normal skills only because that would imbalance the game'. WTF Anet?

Adding 7 heroes would have been a much more balanced and skillful addition to the game then the PVE skills and consumables. I just dont understand Anet at all nowadays, and just wonder how bad they are going to make GW2 with all the stupid ideas they keep placing in their current game.

Asplode · Oct 17, 2007, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

Waaaaaaaaaaaah

Replace "price" with "time".
PvE, Armor Skins, and Titles go on the left side of the chart.

Ulterion · Oct 18, 2007, 12:49 AM // 00:49

GWars is coming to a

GG Anet and your worthless updates...

Liberations · Oct 18, 2007, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Rahja, that was the most wise and down to Earth post I have ever seen on Guild War Guru.

I completely agree with everything you said, ArenaNet needs to understand that they have strayed off the niche of their original format for Guild Wars, and they probably do, too. Sadly, it's too late. ArenaNet's only chance is Guild Wars 2. They need to focus on it, use all the developing power they have, and deliver a game that represents the Guild Wars concept.

The originial Guild Wars was such a great game. Eye of the North, too, wasn't bad at all though, in fact, I believe it to be a great RPG that is much better than so many people here make it out to be. However, I say this as someone who doesn't mind games like World of Warcraft, etc. that have grind. I understand that people do (or did) play Guild Wars because it was originally anti-grind. This is something I've been able to realize recently, and it dissapoints me that ArenaNet has fallen into these pitfalls. ArenaNet isn't being retarted or stupid with their ideas. They probably are trying fairly hard. They're failing, that's what the problem is, even though they're trying their hardest.

Analogy: A kid at school tries really to get a good grade but time and time fails again. This isn't helped by the pressure his parents (in our case, the community) and peers (Other MMO developers)put on him.

The problem with Guild Wars isn't that it is bad. The problem is that Guild Wars is becoming a "me too"* MMO.

^*From the words of ArenaNet high-ups to describe many MMOs that don't do well.

*EDIT* in order to prevent problems in Guild Wars 2, I would really like to see a lot more closed (or open) Beta testing for things like major updates and expansions/campaigns. This would help a lot of ill feelings towards features that have become too grind-friendly.

big papi · Oct 18, 2007, 02:34 AM // 02:34

i approve of this thread

Vinraith · Oct 18, 2007, 02:38 AM // 02:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ulterion

GG Anet and your worthless updates...

I love that this thread is still accumulating comments like this when the most recent updated solved the problem, even according to the original poster. Are you people ignorant or just incredibly ungrateful?

draxynnic · Oct 18, 2007, 05:57 AM // 05:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

Well, guess what? The dungeon guide update on the 12th that happened fixed this. GJ ANET. /cheers

Agreed.

There is still the issue of gaining a mechanical benefit from title grind (from skills becoming more effective from higher ranks even if the direct benefit isn't applicable in an area), but I don't think that's a genie they can put back in the bottle. At least with the book update they've made it so that replaying the game is actually a viable alternative to monster hunt grind for gaining points.

Jongo River · Oct 18, 2007, 09:58 AM // 09:58

Vinraith, if you don't want threads like this to continue, why fan the flames with insulting remarks?

I'll concede ANet have probably "fixed" GW:EN, as well as they could within its design. I'm hardly going to be grateful for a product I still find deeply disappointing, though.

Asplode · Oct 18, 2007, 05:03 PM // 17:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinraith

I love that this thread is still accumulating comments like this when the most recent updated solved the problem, even according to the original poster. Are you people ignorant or just incredibly ungrateful?

I believe the real question is: Should we be grateful for support for a game we paid for, or should this be something we have to come to expect from a respectable game company? When people have to be grateful for a company doing what's expected of them, overdue, and not very well thought out or tested, we're in trouble.

The forgiving attitude lots of players give game companies is the source of the problem.

Vinraith · Oct 18, 2007, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asplode

I believe the real question is: Should we be grateful for support for a game we paid for, or should this be something we have to come to expect from a respectable game company? When people have to be grateful for a company doing what's expected of them, overdue, and not very well thought out or tested, we're in trouble.

"Support" is fixing bugs, and should be expected. Listening to the community and making changes to the design to accommodate them, on the other hand, is an exemplary level of support. You're free to think otherwise, but you're going to spend the vast majority of your time disappointed. It's a rare few development teams that actually listen to their fan base to the degree that Anet does (frankly I think they listen too much, but that's another thread).

Crom The Pale · Oct 18, 2007, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Anet does listen, they really do, but when was the last time ALL GW players agreed on any one thing??

They are doing there best, and the update to the Hero/Dungeon Books was a great means of wiping the grind for armor out of GW.

Now we have a reason to redo the quests/dungeons and you don't have to do them on hard mode if thats more challange than your up for. The normal mode books will bost your titles fast and are very easy to fill up.

Now if only they had a fix to the Sunspear/Lightbringer title grind, not that its terribly hard, but you tend to have to farm the same maps for the same foes so much its sickening after the 20th or so run...